[00:00:00] Eric: You will actually be able to tell me to edit anything out that you want of to so you have complete editorial control. All right. I am here at a c t in Pittsburgh, 2022, and I am with Dave Strotz from the University of West Florida. Hi Dave. How you doing, Eric? Good, good. Thanks for asking. Thank you for being a guest on Psych Sessions.
[00:00:21] Eric: My pleasure. So I have all kinds of things to talk to you about. Um, I don’t know if you wanna start with that. We are both department chairs if or, or start with your three dog night textbook about research methods, the cover, or, um, transitioning from Monmouth University to Florida. Um, what’s going on in your life these days?
[00:00:50] Dave: What’s going on in my life? There’s so many different things. It’s interesting. I’m a point in my life where I’m start thinking about the back end of my career. Yeah, me too. What is the mark that I wanna make? [00:01:00] Um, you know, I’ve worked my way up through. You know, the academy. Um, I’m now a chair. I’m actually a two time chair.
[00:01:06] Dave: I was a chair at Monmouth University and I end up moving to West Florida to be a chair because I was getting bored at my previous institution. Now are you
[00:01:16] Eric: being serious about that when you say that you, you were getting
[00:01:18] Dave: bored? I was getting bored. So when I was, I guess a little backstory, be helpful, in my life, um, when I came outta graduate school, I could have went either way, applied sector or teaching.
[00:01:29] Dave: I ended up getting a job at a very small school. In Virginia, I literally doubled the department. They had one faculty member. I became number two, and then my colleague left after a year. So I was senior member of a two person department, second year of graduate school.
[00:01:45] Eric: So, so where did you go to undergrad?
[00:01:47] Dave: Uh, so I went to Dickinson College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Okay. I went to Dickinson to be a lawyer. That was my intention, and Dickinson was right next to Dick. Dickinson School of Law [00:02:00] and I realized what they were going through and I decided I didn’t wanna do that. So it left me a quandary, which I major in, and I decided I might as well major in something I liked cuz I figure if you have to spend 40% of your time in classes, And, and a major, you might as well take classes you enjoy.
[00:02:16] Dave: So that literally, I’m using the word literally a lot now, um, is why majored in psychology wasn’t this incredible passion of science. It was really unlike the courses when I graduated college, I had no idea what wanted to do.
[00:02:30] Eric: So, so was there a lawyer in your family? What inspired that? Uh, that interest in law school?
[00:02:36] Dave: So I. I’m from a lower working class background, and when you do well in school and you’d like to argue, people naturally think you should be a lawyer. I wasn’t a doctor, I was a lawyer, so that was kind of the impetus. And I’m really first generation, um, college student. So when I went to college, I, I really didn’t know what I was doing.
[00:02:57] Dave: Um, in many ways I [00:03:00] was fortunate enough, I’m gonna phrase it this way. I was fortunate enough to be poor enough to go to the college. I went. . Okay. And I mean that in terms of financial aid and things like this, I look back in terms of college costs. I’m not sure how I afford it, but I was fortunate in terms of grants and things like this.
[00:03:18] Dave: Mm-hmm. . Um, so I went to college and one of the things that I will say happened in college, I got involved doing student research. I had a faculty member, a social psychologist, asked me to help him with the study. I do not remember why he asked me. Um, I wasn’t the top student. I. Solid B student. But I got involved and I bring this up because after I graduate college, I had no idea what I wanted to do.
[00:03:44] Dave: I applied at the warehouse my father worked at, which was a paper company. It was, if you think of Dun Mifflin, this was Gary b Canyon Paper Company. I used to work in the warehouse there, applied to be a salesperson there with been the Jim Halper of um, [00:04:00] Gar Buchanan Paper Company. But then I got a job as a research a.
[00:04:04] Dave: In a large, uh, study on studying depression among the elderly in geriatric center. Why? Because of that undergraduate research I did that led to a presentation at Eastern Psych Association. Doing research there is what led me to decide to apply to graduate school and went to Temple University. I had different opportunities, um, but I went to Temple because they g me funding for four years.
[00:04:30] Dave: So don’t
[00:04:31] Eric: you think. The under as an undergraduate, the professor who plucked you, if you will, saw talent saw initiative. I mean, it wasn’t a random choice. Come on, it’s me and you talking. All right. We happened to be in front of microphones. Right. But I mean, it wasn’t randomness, it wasn’t a required thing for him to pick you.
[00:04:53] Eric: Yeah.
[00:04:53] Dave: And. You know, it’s always hard to look back and say, what was it in me per se? Um, [00:05:00] I always feel fortunate. I feel like I’ve associate with great people and I’ve really been on their coattails and they’ve helped me provide me opportunities. And maybe this is one of them. I, I’m not sure why. Yeah. But I’m always grateful for this, for happening.
[00:05:15] Dave: Um, I, you know, I know, I always feel like there’s that lucky accident. That I was in the right place, right time. And you’ve already mentioned about textbooks. We’ll talk about this. We, the issue of becoming chair at West Florida simply, you know, I think the mantra is, I’ve often said yes to things or why not?
[00:05:35] Dave: As opposed to immediate
[00:05:36] Eric: No. Right. But they’ve, I’m, so I, let’s see, how do I say this politely? To a guest that you’ve asked to do something. I, I don’t think these are happy accidents. Don’t you? Can I, can I offer you a plausible alternative explanation?
[00:05:55] Dave: You could, as a good psychologist, ,
[00:05:58] Eric: perhaps it was [00:06:00] the hard work that you’ve done at every single stage of your career that led to.
[00:06:06] Eric: Um, someone offering you the research position, which you knocked outta the park and went to epa, which by the way, not every undergraduate student experience results in an EPA conference presentation. Or perhaps it was really hard work that landed a book contract or perhaps it was super hard, an industrious work that landed the job at the University West Florida department chair.
[00:06:30] Eric: I’m not so sure it was. Fortune or luck or being in the right place in the right time.
[00:06:37] Dave: I, I, I accept that. I think that it is, I’ve always tried to just do a little bit better, and I will say it’s also associate with positive. models. Right. Uh, and I think that helps, that brings me along of, you know, everyone I’m sure listen podcasts familiar with the imposter phenomenon.
[00:06:56] Dave: Sure. And I think I’m finally over that 30 plus years in [00:07:00] my career. Um, but I’ve always tried to learn from others and I think maybe that’s helped me along the way, but I do think that tried to be prepared for opportunities when they present them.
[00:07:13] Eric: Yeah. I so many people that I, I have the privilege of talking to.
[00:07:18] Eric: Express the same kind of thing that you do. You know, even Bill Machi, uh, when I got to interview him late in life, would continue to say, I was just lucky. I would try to gently have a conversation with Bill Machi in his nineties and say, bill, you weren’t just lucky. You worked incredibly hard your entire career.
[00:07:37] Eric: No one accepted your publications, your your journal submissions on the basis of luck or random chance. Um, I think people take that, that tactic. As a sign of humility, which I think we all understand. No one wants to brag about it, but you’ve achieved the things that you’ve achieved because you’ve worked incredibly
[00:07:56] Dave: hard for them.
[00:07:57] Dave: Well, well, I appreciate it. I, it’s funny how we see ourselves. I [00:08:00] look at Bill McKee, if you use a baseball analogy, you know, he’s. I’m the 400 hitter. Right. You know, I see myself as that 2 85 guy. Yeah. Solid and really doing great things. But then I associate with the 303 25 hitters. And that’s, and it’s always your comparison group, I’m sure.
[00:08:19] Dave: Um, and I’m, I’m happy with that. I, you know, I see my goal is to support other people and make them better as opposed to be the person who. So is the top
[00:08:32] Eric: of the field. Well, I’m, I’m glad you know, I’ll, I’ll get off at this topic, I promise in about 15, 20 minutes, . Um, I think you’re selling yourself short.
[00:08:41] Eric: Well, thank you. But you get to perceive yourself the way that you want to. I will respect that. And secondly, Bill McKees. You would love that you chose baseball as the analogy. I don’t know if you did that on purpose, but he loved playing softball. Yeah. Yeah. And he once said something to the effect of the 31, no hitters that I [00:09:00] pitched are just as valuable to me as 31 publications I have on my cv.
[00:09:05] Eric: He loved playing softball in the faculty league, so, well,
[00:09:09] Dave: what’s funny you say that, because when I moved to Pensacola, I decided to join a. Softball league to get to know people. And what I realize is how poor of an athlete I am. Um, but I worked hard to become better and I left on top of my game, so to speak.
[00:09:25] Dave: Um, but I worked hard and you know, and I think there’s something about sports as a good metaphor for always trying to be harder. I lear today I read a quote by someone talked about the value of sports is you’re putting yourself out there to fail and. Really encountering your greatest fear, which is failure.
[00:09:46] Eric: You know, I don’t think we do that as teachers as often as we should. I, I think we oftentimes go into the class classroom and we teach the course the way we taught it the last time. I think. I think there’s safety in that, in [00:10:00] that there’s comfort in that. And I think you’ve brought up a really good point that we don’t, we don’t often take those risks
[00:10:06] Dave: well, and I think you.
[00:10:08] Dave: One of the biggest shifts I had in my teaching careers where I learned to take risks, um, where I learned that it’s kind. My classroom. I, I, if I can’t be safe in the environment that I created myself, then shame will me. And I think that’s valuable for students. When you take risks, um, gimme an example of this in my social psychology class, just finished talking about prejudice and you know, students all have their own perspectives and.
[00:10:36] Dave: I started with talking about my incredible blind spots. Things that I’ve done in the past were made sexist comments without realizing it until someone pointed it out, and then it’s like, my gosh, you’re right. You know, I’ve talked about my upbringing and because I know the stories that I have resonate with students who will never speak about it, but if they see someone else that happens, that’s good.
[00:10:59] Dave: Now, [00:11:00] I will say I do take some leery license with this, but I think. Willing to take risks in classroom. And sometimes I’ve said some things that were not quite on points, and then someone points out to me. I go, and I admit, you’re absolutely right and I change. I think that’s a
[00:11:19] Eric: great rapport that an instructor can have with students.
[00:11:21] Eric: I was teaching Capstone a couple semesters ago and I was trying to make a joke about something and I made a heteronormative joke in my classroom and someone pointed out, That’s not always the way it is with couples. And I stopped in my tracks and I said, you’re right. I’m so sorry. I apologize. I wasn’t thinking that through and.
[00:11:46] Eric: You know, I think, I think most instructors have to be in a place where they’re comfortable saying, and I, I, I have enough experience and privilege to be honest, where I could say to my cla, my classroom of 50, [00:12:00] 60, 80 students, I apologize. I didn’t think that through. And fortunately my students were appreciative of that and could have.
[00:12:09] Eric: Just as easily angry with me about that. Um, but like you just said, you know, you can model that. You can make a mistake. It’s honest. You can apologize when you realize it. And my students were comfortable calling me out on it, which I app. I genuinely appreciate it.
[00:12:24] Dave: I think you’re also modeling that learning.
[00:12:27] Dave: Is transactional and it’s a partnership. Yeah. I’m not sitting there. I’m not the sage on the
[00:12:32] Eric: stage. Right. And I’m not perfect. No. Yeah, I do appreciate that. You know, you were talking about sports a minute ago. I’m not on Facebook very often these days, or social media, but I do know that. You are, you continue to be a die hard, uh, Eagles fan.
[00:12:48] Eric: Go Birds . There you go. You you got it in. I believe were, weren’t you at an Eagles game recently?
[00:12:56] Dave: So it’s fi I have two sons. [00:13:00] Um, talk about very different sons. The older one is a musician. He is a high school band slash choir slash theater director. The younger one is the. and so we’ve now, for the past nine, 10 years, we’ve been going to Eagles games, and even though I’ve moved to Florida, Trying to make a point of going to a game.
[00:13:23] Dave: So I flew up and the reason, it’s kind of funny, this particular game, because I decided let’s go in early October when it’ll be warm, I could wear shorts, , and I went there and it’s when the remnants of Hurricane Ian had hit and it was pouring rain and had a great time. And so, and it turned out it was part of my birthday present for my son because he arranged, we went to a pre-game with, uh, former nfl.
[00:13:48] Dave: They did. So it was a lot of fun. Um, but yeah, so I enjoy the, you know, I enjoy the NFL sports, which has been the big change being in Florida where everyone’s like, go Gators, role, tide. [00:14:00] Um, right. I’m an
[00:14:01] Eric: NFL guy. Well, and I, you know, so, uh, . So in Idaho there are no NFL teams, so we follow the Boise State Broncos with the blue turf.
[00:14:10] Eric: The Smurf turf is big for us, but I’ve been a Chicago Bears fan my whole life. I grew up halfway between, uh, Chicago and Milwaukee. So, um, who did you meet at the NFL event? Well, it was Chris
[00:14:22] Dave: Long Foundation. Oh, okay. Sure. And this is one of the great things about, you know, people talk about athletes and they might in dismissive terms, but the things that people have done, He has a foundation that really, earlier we were talking to a c t about human rights, and for him is clean drinking water is a human rights and so is a, it was a special fundraiser for that, but it was, um, Chris Long and, um, Oh my gosh.
[00:14:50] Dave: Forgetting some of the, the people’s there’s, okay, no worries. But all I know is I felt very small . That’s the way I felt. And the retired NFL players are still pretty big. [00:15:00] This one person that he lost like 60 pounds, I didn’t recognize him. So he is down to his VE 2 85, you know, but it was just really, and my son is taller than me too, so it felt very small.
[00:15:12] Dave: And you’re pretty tall. Yeah, I’m okay. I’m marriage , so, all right. But anyway, yeah, it was fun. And I do those things because. One of the things I think is important is memorable moments, experiences, and I will say this with my children. We’ve been all over the country in our pop-up trailer, um, and the impact we’ve had on.
[00:15:34] Dave: Our sons doing these trips is memorable, even though, you know, we could have went to Disney and things like this, but we did what we could afford and it didn’t matter and it’s made a difference. Sure. Um, and you’ll probably get this kind of my philosophy of teaching, so I’m gonna just slide into that. If you’ll not go for it, go for it, because, When I read a book one time, it was by Simon Sinek, and the book is called Start With Y W H Y, [00:16:00] and it was a business book talking about where do corporations lose their way.
[00:16:03] Dave: They know what they do, they know how they do it, they don’t know why they do it, and I’ve kind of taken that approach to my teaching and even parenting without even realizing it. I sat down, started thinking about what is my why, and I’ve decided it’s to provide meaningful educational experie. And that really informs a lot of things.
[00:16:23] Dave: So when we took our kids across country and doing these things, it was really meaningful to them, you know, going out where, grew up in New Jersey, but when you travel to Wyoming, you understand the, the gun culture. You understand it is part, it’s a tool you use, right? You. You go to rodeos, you understand how people think differently.
[00:16:45] Dave: Go to Texas, not Ben Idaho, only Idaho, just a little bit, you know, crossing from um Yellowstone. Sure, sure, sure. But I think that makes a difference in their lives. And when I do things in the classroom, obviously try to think [00:17:00] about meaningful educational experiences. Why do I take large groups of students to regional conferences all my own time?
[00:17:07] Dave: Right. Because you know what, it means a lot to them cuz someone did it. Back when I was a student. So, um, so going to like these football games with my son, you know, when you are, you see them once a year, it becomes a meaningful thing we do. Um,
[00:17:25] Eric: so yeah, it’s very, it’s, it’s very thoughtful. It’s very much pay it forward.
[00:17:29] Eric: Yeah. Um, you really can’t pay it back, but you can pay it forward with your current university, west Florida students and you. I’m just, I’m just trying to process through those family vacations in that popup camper, you know, to, you know, the joke I’ve always made my entire life is that I, I, I don’t care for camping.
[00:17:56] Eric: I’ve done it once or twice. Camping for me was a Holiday Inn with a [00:18:00] broken tv. Mm-hmm. . Right. You know, that’s about as much as I wanna rough it. I would glamp, I think, yes. I don’t think I would camp, but, you know, I think if. As a kid, I might not have appreciated it, but if I had a parents who years later, if it was explained to me like you have that it was, had been thought out that we weren’t just going on this trip, but this trip had meaning had been planned and we were going somewhere because there were layers to it.
[00:18:33] Eric: We weren’t just going to see grandma and grandpa, but we were gonna make certain stops along the way. That were planful and meaningful and had depth to them. That’s pretty special. I gotta tell you, just listening to you,
[00:18:46] Dave: well, let me put one caveat to the, we weren’t roughing it. I mean, our popup had an air conditioner, just so you know,
[00:18:53] Dave: Okay, I was doing this. But you know what, I also had the mantra of you need quantity, time to [00:19:00] have quality moments. Yeah. And so I, there’s some stories in Strotz folklore about dad and certain things there. You know, there’s one story where my favorite saying to my sons was, you know, this is just like Disney except the real thing,
[00:19:21] Dave: And there was one time we were on the, we were on this, , a floating river that was barely moving in this big raft. And I said, you know, this is just like Disney except the real thing. And my son had a cup of water in his hand. He just immediately just threw it at me. Now as time stood still Splash Mountain.
[00:19:41] Dave: Exactly, but time stood still. And he was like, oh my gosh, what have I done? How will dad react? Will he like erupt or laugh? and I laugh. But it was one of those moments that will forever be in str, in str its folklore. I think that’s important, [00:20:00] meaningful moments. And um, I think we do the same thing in the classroom, um, where you have a student ask a question and all of a sudden you think about something and there’s aha, aha moment.
[00:20:12] Dave: And I’ll give you an example of this if you don’t mind. I was talking about microaggressions in social psychology class, and I was talking about the issue. Some people say like, well, what’s wrong with just not seeing color? You often hear this micro invalidation. I don’t see color. I see human, and I, all of a sudden I stopped and I said, have you ever heard a person of color say that phrase?
[00:20:38] Dave: And that’s one of those epiphany moments. Mm-hmm. and I share it all the time. It’s kind of, but. It’s part of that quantity, time of interacting with students, not talking at them, that I think makes a difference. Yeah.
[00:20:51] Eric: I, I, I like your idea of, of time. I, I say to people who will listen, the greatest gift I have to give is the gift of time.[00:21:00]
[00:21:00] Eric: Um, I, I, I am fortunate enough and privileged enough in my life if I, if I wanna make more money, I, I have ways of making more money. Um, I have no ways of making more time. And so when I give time to people, to colleagues, to community events, to, um, To volunteer. That’s the gr to my family. That’s the greatest gift I have to give.
[00:21:27] Dave: Well, and I will say, Eric, I’m gonna compliment you this whole psych sessions, what you and Garth does, it really is you’re spending time. You could be interacting with colleagues now on your craft. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Um, but you’re creating something in perpetuity. Hopefully you’re creating something that, you know, you’ve created access to incredible people in the.
[00:21:52] Dave: Beyond myself for fitting that. No,
[00:21:54] Eric: no. Beyond myself. I
[00:21:55] Dave: almost got it in there.
[00:21:56] Eric: No, I’m gonna guess what? I get the edit too. . [00:22:00]
[00:22:00] Dave: But you know, the fact is that, and, and I’m very appreciative. When I started a small school in Virginia, brand new teacher, I was teaching six classes a semester, and I taught every class except developmental psychology.
[00:22:17] Dave: That value, you know, meeting people made difference. A member of my first teaching conference was at James Madison University and Doug Bernstein was there and he gave demonstrations, , it’s so funny, demonstrations we could never use today. One was, um, problem solving. Play this record. He had a vinyl record , and it was the idea he gave you things like piece of paper, tape a needle and things like this.
[00:22:43] Dave: You know, things that would not resonate well with technology. But I think that you’re spending your time now to really make a difference on the field. So. Well, thank you. And for the record right now, Eric is turning red ,
[00:22:57] Eric: uh, I’ve just read normally red all the time. [00:23:00] Yeah, yeah. When I started, uh, the, the. The supplements for textbooks would come in overhead, transparencies.
[00:23:07] Eric: They would, they weren’t coming in PowerPoint slides. PowerPoint wasn’t invented yet. Uh,
[00:23:11] Dave: we’re the same cohort. I, in fact, one of the things I loved about PowerPoint is all my overhead transparencies after class would be a. Big mess. And then you have to reorganize ’em again.
[00:23:22] Eric: Well, my hands would be black because I’d used them as an eraser on the PowerPoint slides I had written on, in, on, on top of the overhead, uh, projector.
[00:23:32] Eric: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we can, we, if you wanna keep going down that, you know, old age road. No, we don’t need to punch cards with SPSS decks, you know, over at the computer center and graduate school and all that. . I know you have. You have dear friends at Monmouth University. Mm-hmm. , yes. And some that you have collaborated with over the years and you still collaborate with.
[00:23:56] Eric: Yep. And someone told me that every [00:24:00] time you. Have a new addition of your research methods textbook. You add a dog to the cover. Is that accurate information
[00:24:09] Dave: that it It’s a puppy. I’m sorry. Thank you. That’s, well, you know, it’s funny when we first, and I will say that I’m not, my colleagues are huge dog people.
[00:24:19] Dave: Um, not huge pet person. We’ve had cat, um, but. They wanted to have puppies and one of the reasons is to make the textbook cover memorable cuz publishers love having abstract pictures on covers. And we wanted something memorable so that people remember the puppy book. I will say, you know, method, you have methods book, you know the one with the puppies and remember, but there’s also a little Easter egg in there because if you’re familiar with the, the puppy that’s on there, do you.
[00:24:52] Dave: Type of puppy it is. No, I haven’t, I haven’t seen the newest version. They’re all the same. It’s a Labrador or a lab puppy. Or a [00:25:00] lab
[00:25:00] Eric: for a look at you book. Oh, look at you. So, so tell our listeners, if you don’t mind, about the book and about your
[00:25:09] Dave: co-authors. So, um, my co-authors, I’m, I like to say I’m Al because it’s, it’s Lewendowsky, SoCo and Strotz, or Lewendowsky.
[00:25:18] Dave: Leki and Al. Um, this. Book I will say was Brainchild of Gary Lewandowski. We’ve taught methods at Monmouth University, New Jersey, not Illinois.
[00:25:31] Eric: Right. Monmouth College in Illinois, which get confused all the time, even though we’re
[00:25:36] Dave: named after the county, not the town. You’re named after the town, if I believe Mon.
[00:25:40] Dave: Yes we
[00:25:40] Eric: are. Yeah. Monmouth Monmouth College is in Monmouth,
[00:25:42] Dave: Illinois. Right. And Monmouth University is in Monmouth County
[00:25:45] Eric: new. And the only reason that’s relevant to me is I was an undergraduate and graduated from Monmouth College in Monmouth, Illinois. Yeah,
[00:25:53] Dave: so we taught methods and our goal is to make research methods engaging.
[00:25:58] Dave: Um, and [00:26:00] we’ve done a lot of different activity ways, but Gary start thinking about the idea of we seem to teach methods in a way that does not reflect the actual research process, where you start with an idea and you learn what other people have done and you explore it, um, and then you actually collect the data.
[00:26:20] Dave: you present a day in some way, shape, or form. And he also started thinking about. Students really engage in material they find interesting and students have lots of questions. It is rare not to find at least two out of every five psych PA majors who wanna know what goes on in the mind of a serial killer.
[00:26:40] Dave: Um, and many wanna become profilers. And I will say, thank goodness we don’t need many profilers out there. It’s not a thriving industry. Thank
[00:26:49] Eric: you. Yeah. You know, I, uh, the story. We, we had a, a, a person who just retired from our department who did some stuff with the FBI and had [00:27:00] some contacts there and had the, had the information to be able to say this, take the number of profilers on criminal minds.
[00:27:10] Eric: Double it. That’s the number of profilers in the FBI in the United States. So every student who comes to us, we, we gently try to burst that bubble so they know what they’re really asking
[00:27:21] Dave: about, you know, but they find the questions fascinating. They do indeed. And so we start thinking about how can we construct a textbook that it’s based around, not concepts per se, but interesting questions, and you learn the concepts along the way.
[00:27:36] Dave: So we, our book is really structured around, Almost a case study approach where every chapter we start with a question that might be relevant to them. Um, it might be on attraction, you know, relationships. Should you join a sorority or fraternity, things like this. But we tied into some other concept like [00:28:00] how one, you know, could your decision to join a Greek organization be relayed to your sense of self in your self-concept clarity?
[00:28:07] Dave: And then we take this idea and we say, well, how, what is the lure found? And then how can we use. A method to study answer’s question. Give me, let me give you a different example. So the use of cell phones in classrooms is really controversial. Mm-hmm. because students are like, why not students? And I know faculty who are adamant they’ll, shall they shame you if it goes off?
[00:28:32] Dave: And if you’re familiar, Dan Wagner’s White Bear study told not to think of a white. And then you naturally thinking that. So we decided to use this idea as interesting way where research questions come from. And we asked the question, could banning cell phones in class actually make it more disruptive to learning?
[00:28:53] Dave: And we design that two group study based on, and so you’re going through the decision process of it and we give students [00:29:00] fake data. We didn’t really do it, of course, and it and ends with it. The whole goal of the book is for you to start thinking. How can I approach questions as a research researcher and go through all the processes knowing that most students will never actually get the opportunity to conduct their own study.
[00:29:18] Dave: So that’s where it, it’s come from. And I will say that this, again, fortunate enough to have great colleagues who say, Hey Dave, are you interested? Why not? And I was part of it. And what we’ve done, going back to your question, the puppies, what we’ve tried to do now is to every. Cover. Every edition has another puppy.
[00:29:37] Dave: So we’ve added a third puppy on it, and I will talk, you know, I will point out the third puppy. One of the things we’ve tried to do is real diversity in the color. So the first one was a white lab, and we’ve now. diversified it because that’s important issues. Right.
[00:29:54] Eric: And let me just add for the listeners, if you’re not familiar with books or textbook publishing, to get [00:30:00] a book to the third edition is a real accomplishment.
[00:30:03] Eric: So it’s always an accomplishment to get a contract and to write it and to publish it, but to be able to revise it means it’s a successful. Publishers will not keep investing in revisions unless it’s selling and unless it’s meeting the need in the market. So again, to you and to Natalie and to Gary, congratulations on that.
[00:30:22] Eric: That is a big accomplishment. Our publishers
[00:30:25] Dave: said, we have a real book now. Um, they didn’t say that actually the second edition. Well, but the third, as you just point out it, it’s staying power. The other thing I will say, we were just talking about the imposter phenomenon. It, it’s funny, we always thought about textbook authors have.
[00:30:40] Dave: brilliant. And the top of the game, one of the things we’ve learned is publishers love people who get the work done on time, , right? And they’re dependable and they’re also listening to good feedback. Um, you know, when you’re publishing, you’re always the dreaded reviewer, number two. Mm-hmm. and textbook.
[00:30:58] Dave: It’s reviewer [00:31:00] 2 14 35 and 61 .
[00:31:03] Eric: Right? But also, they can also be brilliant and on top of their game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There could be. That’s also author one, author two, and author three. Yes. Thank you. So, um, is the work that the three of you have done on, uh, employable skills connected to research methods, or is that a separate
[00:31:25] Dave: project?
[00:31:25] Dave: That’s a separate project. That was, Natalie and I have really. Picked up on that. Not Gary. Not Gary.
[00:31:30] Eric: Gary Slacked off on that one.
[00:31:31] Dave: Gary’s doing incredible things. He’s the guru of relationships really spreading word. Okay. Um, so Natalie and I, um, we, one of those questions, I’m not sure how they arise, but they talked about creating a scale to measure self-efficacy, employable skills.
[00:31:48] Dave: And remember, I, I talked about how a research conference led to my first job, which led to graduate school. This project is what led to me, led me to be in [00:32:00] Pensacola, Florida. Now, Um, we decided to create a scale, um, that measures, you know, students perceive self-efficacy, like how confident are you on these different skills?
[00:32:11] Dave: And we took Drew Applebee’s, um, skills and we developed items with this and we did get some funding through APS and I think STP for developing scale, and it’s called SS Employable Skills, self Efficacy Scale. We’ve actually, You can go online and take the scale email@example.com. And what we’ve tried to do, it’s a self-assessment so students can measure where, you know, assess where they’re at, and then we compare it to how other students feel, you know, or where you are norms.
[00:32:45] Dave: And then we give recommendations. If you feel a little weaker in this area, what are things that you could do? And we’ve been doing some. Based on this, one of the studies that we’re in the process of writing up is [00:33:00] what skills are you developing class? Like what type of class assignments lead to greater improvement in self-advocacy?
[00:33:08] Dave: For example, collaborative work. Is there a connection between the more group projects I do? Does that actually help students start feel more confident in their skills? Right. And so that’s what we’re looking at. I bring the connection to West Florida because not only I presented that research at an a C T conference in San Antonio, and then Jane Haling came up to me and Oh, but he drank everyone.
[00:33:34] Dave: No a dollar. You get that? And Jane, this was for you. Um, she asked me if, Presentation. She said two things. One, that was great. Two, are you pl applicable? And she had meant, are you on stage in your career where you’re willing to do something different? And that pre, and I said maybe, Let’s talk and here I am in West Florida.
[00:33:58] Eric: So a couple things before, [00:34:00] before we go to West Florida. First off, I really appreciate the focus on skills because that’s something I’m passionate about as well. Secondly, I’ve, I’ve used your scale, your anomaly scale In my, some of my own work, pre c I was starting to use it with asking sophomores to fill it out and asking them, fill it out again as seniors to look at.
[00:34:21] Eric: Could we show their self-efficacy, self-report over time improved because hopefully as they’re taking more site courses, they feel, they feel an increase in their, their self-reported skills over time. Covid kind of threw a monkey wrench into that, but I’d like to get back to that because it’s a really well-designed well.
[00:34:40] Eric: Well executed scale. Um, so thank you for that contribution to the literature. It’s great that it’s out there publicly and uh, I think it’s also on the STP website under instructional
[00:34:52] Dave: resources right, as well. I think that’s where it originally started, right? Yeah. And one of the things, you know, listener might think, well, isn’t.[00:35:00]
[00:35:00] Dave: Isn’t what important is what their actual skills are. And our approach thinking about this is you may have skills, but if you don’t know you have skills or confident, you’re not gonna sell yourself on those skills. So there has to be a confidence level when you go in the interview and the employer says, well, tell me about your speaking skills and you have to have some self-efficacy.
[00:35:23] Dave: This,
[00:35:24] Eric: this is a really good point. I think anytime we go into an area in psychology, we all, we almost always start with self-report. It’s a really natural place to go and anyone who criticizes your work on, well, why don’t you just measure the skills? We don’t do that a lot with student skills. We measure writing skills cuz, cuz that’s the one that’s pluck there.
[00:35:49] Eric: But how many people are really measuring critical thinking skills at graduation or ethical reasoning or decision making? We, we talk that talk, but [00:36:00] not many departments, including my own walk. That walk. So, Anyone is being critical about, well, you’re only measuring attri self attribution or self-efficacy.
[00:36:10] Eric: Well, you’re, at least you’re measuring something in a systematic basis based on a measure that was psychometrically determined. Um, don’t be hypercritical of that unless you’re really measuring skills like with an assessment center or some other way. I don’t, I don’t care for people who are hypercritical but don’t have a better
[00:36:30] Dave: alternative.
[00:36:31] Dave: Right. And I guess my point is, you may have the skills, but if you don’t confident you have them, you’re not going to sell them. Right. You’re not going to pursue, like, I’m a little bit more, I don’t feel like I have these skills. I can get better at this. You know, with I’ve tried to become a better teachers because I realized the skills.
[00:36:52] Dave: I’ve deficit in, I’ve tried to get better on these things. Well, yeah.
[00:36:56] Eric: And I, we see this also in students all the time where [00:37:00] they don’t, they don’t realize what they can do. And so I think that’s where another, what the value of the scale that, that you guys have developed, what you’re pointing out. Um, I’ve overheard conversations with students who, um, will say, well, I wasn’t a research assistant.
[00:37:16] Eric: I don’t have research skills to put on my resume or my cv, and I’ll. And I will overhear and then interject probably rudely and say, didn’t you have a research methods class? And didn’t you do a project in that class where you collect data, wrote it up, put it in AP format, analyzed it in SPSS, and wrote a complete manuscript, and they go, Oh yeah, I did do that.
[00:37:37] Eric: Guess what? You have some research skills. You didn’t have to be a research assistant to get experience in research. Didn’t you have that psych measurement course where you did that class project where you actually collaborated on a research project for the university? So they sometimes students don’t.
[00:37:53] Eric: Recognize their own skills or that class projects class group work actually led them to [00:38:00] develop the skills on that very survey.
[00:38:02] Dave: And in fact, I think as instructors, it’s incumbent upon this to help point that out to, you know, many times you’ll have students that do some major capstone project, a semester long project.
[00:38:13] Dave: At the end they go, I wrote a paper, I did a thesis. And we talk with students and talk and we say, how can you sell? On a job interview, they may not necessarily be concerned with, you know, I’ve done a research paper, but if you said, let me tell you, a project that required project management skills, that I had to organize and plan out of a period of time that I had to engage in self-regulation, self-management, cuz I set myself time, you know, time markers to get things done at the end, I had to present it to a large group of people.
[00:38:46] Dave: All of a sudden that final project becomes, More meaningful to employers. And it’s funny, we talking about skills and I will point out Eric, I dunno if you remember, but when you were a c T president or STP [00:39:00] president, you had task force and skills. I did. And I was on that. You were, yeah. And I think that’s might have been when we first really started interacting.
[00:39:06] Dave: I, cuz I went to, you said, let me help, um, again, putting yourself out there. But that was all part of skills and I think that is, Of important improvement and change in the field. Since when I started teaching, I was like, you know, let’s look at what skills. Cuz you know, psychology is, you know, science, it’s always evolving and same thing with people’s education.
[00:39:29] Dave: It’s not just learning this content, but it’s. The skills you’re developing as you learn the content. I think in those terms,
[00:39:36] Eric: um, yeah. The, the content, the content is available on these cell phones that we have, the content’s available. You can Google the content. It’s our students ability and our as professionals.
[00:39:49] Eric: It’s our ability to be able to understand what to do with the content, the, the practical application of it. So what greater compliment could someone get? [00:40:00] Then for someone to come up to them and say, are you pl applicable? I cannot imagine a higher compliment. Um, much less. Okay. Okay. I can ima from, from Jane ding, Halon drink.
[00:40:20] Eric: I mean, there you go. And there it is.
[00:40:23] Dave: And that’s, and from my perspective again, I talked about, so seeing great. That’s like, wow, I talk about the right place, right time. I will say though, that opportunities you can take advantage of have to happen at right place, right time. I just happened to be in where I was in my life with family issues and even CareerWise.
[00:40:44] Dave: I re mentioned to you I was getting bored. Yeah. But even if
[00:40:48] Eric: you said no, it’s still a great compliment. Yeah. It’s still a fantastic compliment. Ding.
[00:40:54] Dave: Yeah, . And let me add one other thing then I think. If you remember what my answer to her [00:41:00] was, was maybe it wasn’t immediately dismissive, because you never know what may present itself, and I think that’s important for us to help our students.
[00:41:10] Dave: I know students will immediately dismiss like a potential job opportunity. Well, I can’t do that. Well, let’s talk about it may be the best thing for you, or taking a class, you know, would you be interested in this class? No. Why not? You might be thinking about loneliness.
[00:41:27] Eric: Right. So you’d been chair at Monmouth?
[00:41:30] Eric: Mm-hmm. University. And you were hired into Chair University of West Florida. Yes. I’m assuming you were hired with tenure. Yes. So you, you wanted that assurance. Um, were you hired as a department chair? Department head? They call
[00:41:45] Dave: it department chair. Okay.
[00:41:47] Eric: But you were. But, but you, if, if at some point you don’t want to be chair anymore, you would just become a regular member of the
[00:41:55] Dave: department.
[00:41:55] Dave: Correct. Full professor. I came in with full professor with tenure. There was, [00:42:00] um, be honest with you, I would not have moved, say again. I would not have moved or changed locations. Right. Without that. Sure. Um, department chair, the, is the interesting thing. The perception of the chair depends on the institution.
[00:42:13] Dave: I came outta the model of the rotating. They hired me from el. You know, being chair is important. Sometimes we think of well tag you’re it. Um, yes we do, but it really has changed. And I will say that my philosophy as being chair is how can I put people into positions to succeed? That’s kind of that cheerleader.
[00:42:38] Dave: It should be more than just filling out schedules. And at uwf it really is changed into administrative position. So yes, I have terms, but not according to the Dean . You know, you’re always serving a pleasure Dean, and, but I will say one of the things, my identities, I’m a faculty [00:43:00] member who’s chair. I’m not a chair who happens to be a faculty member.
[00:43:06] Dave: I think that’s an important orientation. Yes. I thought about, um, moving up administration world and I dabbled in that and I decide I like what I do. Cuz think about where I spend most of my time is prepping class. That’s a highlight of my day. In fact, I will talk to students all I go into class. I will say, this is the high I I will tell ’em I’m excited to be there.
[00:43:28] Dave: Um, nine 30 in the morning. They’re not. , but I am, but I think knowing that, um, I’m a faculty member whose chair I’m willing to try and say, this is what I believe to be true, and I’m willing to take risks not necessarily to the line in a positive way, I’m being derogatory, but if the dean decides that our worldviews don’t.
[00:43:53] Dave: Put me back in the classroom. Love it. And, and I find that liberating, to tell you truth. Yeah. [00:44:00] Um, so I think it’s important, but I also think that my role as chair is also to model good faculty behavior. So I still trying to publish because it’s hard for me to encourage other people to do things that I would not necessarily do.
[00:44:15] Eric: Right. And ab, I I obviously I can see that in you. How many, how many faculty members, how many full-time and part-time?
[00:44:22] Dave: We have 12, including myself, full-time faculty, part-time. It’s maybe 10. You know, it’s our, you know, it varies and we’ve shrunken size. It’s always a challenge. And, you know, and one of my roles, I think also as chair is helping the department see changing landscape.
[00:44:43] Dave: Of higher education. That’s because many times things are changing and a faculty member doesn’t need to know what’s happening. That’s right. That’s my role.
[00:44:52] Eric: Um, budget model based on student credit hours or uh, historical budgeting or
[00:44:59] Dave: just [00:45:00] historical. You get what year over year. Year. You just get what you got in the past.
[00:45:03] Dave: Okay. So it really, it it’s the currency of value now is major. Number of majors. And now for graduate students, many institutions, they’re struggling with tuition dollars and the money, the opportunities for revenue growth is not at the undergraduate level, particularly when you take into things like tuition discount, um, which is the effect of.
[00:45:27] Dave: You know, every, the myth of the cost of a credit hour is not really what you bring in. Right? So it’s really focused on graduate side. And that’s one of the challenges is how do you meaningfully grow graduate programs to serve workforce needs.
[00:45:44] Eric: And you, uh, do you have graduate program? We
[00:45:46] Dave: have two. We have one in industrial organizational psychology and one in counseling program.
[00:45:51] Dave: Masters
[00:45:51] Eric: or PhD? Masters. Masters, okay. Yeah. And do you. So are there faculty, I shouldn’t say splits, but I are [00:46:00] there graduate faculty, undergraduate faculty, or everyone contributes to both
[00:46:03] Dave: programs. We have graduate faculty dedicated to counseling as well as io, and then they all teach at the undergraduate level.
[00:46:11] Dave: One of the challenges I think in departments when you have graduate and undergraduate is this Ukrainian, these sub tribes within the department. Mm-hmm. . Whereas we’re, you know, we’re. to contribute to the education of all. And sometimes people focus on their, their particular area and that that’s a challenge.
[00:46:30] Dave: Yeah. Um, I know when I was recruited, I came out of a department that did not have a graduate programs. It just, that’s where we were at. Um, so do I value the undergraduate experience? Yes. Because I think that it impacts more people. Do I value graduate? Yes. Because that helps people in their career goals.
[00:46:51] Dave: Sure. So knows how I’m walking the line there, . No,
[00:46:54] Eric: no. Yeah. No. But I think it’s important department chair and so am I, so I,
[00:46:57] Dave: I get it. Yeah. You know, and, and we really, I [00:47:00] mean, our, our goal is really to improve people’s lives through education. Right. Help them achieve their goals. Some, you know, as I know Eric, you talk about the workforce psychology major.
[00:47:10] Dave: Yeah. That for many people, this is. What their, their end goal is. Yep. And their end may not be to become a psychologist, but their end goal is to have a meaningful career, if not calling, that allows ’em to draw upon their psychological background. That’s right. Um, and I think that’s key. Whether someone goes on to feel like counseling or IO psychology, that’s great, uh, for them.
[00:47:40] Eric: Dave, we’ve got a couple more minutes left. Sure. I’m gonna switch gears on you a little bit. Growing up, um, was the question in your household, will you go to college or what college will you go to?
[00:47:53] Dave: It was always what college will you go to? Okay. Um,
[00:47:57] Eric: even though you’re a first generation student, I
[00:47:59] Dave: think [00:48:00] it’s, you know, I think cuz I did well in school mm-hmm.
[00:48:03] Dave: it was always an assumption. Um, but can I, I wanna talk about that first gen issue. Cause I think that is so pivotal. I think about the advantages my two sons have had in college because, I was a college graduate. I, I always appreciate, you know, um, think about things like my two sons, they both went to small liberal arts colleges and they struggle with certain things, you know, classes.
[00:48:28] Dave: And I remember telling them, it’s okay to fail. Here’s a saying, fail fast, move on. And I said, you know, this is what you wanna do. Get out of this course, withdraw and you’ll succeed. Whereas, When I was in college, I didn’t have that parental guidance per se. And you, a lot of times you get the, well, you’re failing, you need to try harder.
[00:48:50] Dave: It was just not the right time, the right fit. And you know, I always think about how my sons, the advantages they’ve had. Like I’ve never pressured ’em like what job you’re gonna get. [00:49:00] I was always more like, I know you’ll be successful because of what you’ve done in college and those skills that carry over.
[00:49:05] Dave: Um, so growing up it was always. Going to college and choosing colleges were so d. I, I remember I chose my college, didn’t even visit the college. I had all the catalogs out, right. And all the brochures went to the open house and I said, I wanna go there. Um, I’m not sure why. And I did early admission, things like this got me in.
[00:49:27] Dave: Do you have brothers and sisters? I have a sister who, younger sister and younger brother. Uh, my sister went to college, um, she went to, uh, Westminster College and she’s in education now. Um, and for, uh, she teaches kind. and my brother actually went into the Navy and he is in, he’s in, uh, corrections system.
[00:49:50] Dave: So he, he did go to college after mm-hmm. the Navy. Um, and so, but it was very different. I,
[00:49:58] Eric: I talk to people, I talk to our students [00:50:00] about the military all the time. Um, because I, I think you get, you can get great education and great training in the military. And uh, actually I come from a Navy family. My father was the Navy.
[00:50:12] Eric: My two brothers were in the Navy, and I actually thought about it. I actually applied to the Naval Academy when I was, when I was in high school, and, um, I, I think it’s a great option for a lot of people. And I, I also believe that college is not for everyone, and so I think the Navy or the military could be an awesome option.
[00:50:31] Dave: Well, we were a Navy family too. My father’s Navy grandfather. Okay. But I felt like when I graduate, the view military is very different. It was a post Vietnam. error and it was never really thought about for my brother. It was like he was one struggled through high school and that became his option. Yeah.
[00:50:51] Dave: Um, So, yeah, I
[00:50:53] Eric: was of the age, and I think you were too. I, I filled out a, uh, it wasn’t a draft card, it [00:51:00] was a selective service.
[00:51:01] Dave: We were, I turned 18. Yeah. We were one of the first ones have to do that. We start, yeah.
[00:51:07] Eric: 1981.
[00:51:08] Dave: Yep. Yeah. Yep. Same cohort.
[00:51:09] Eric: Yeah, exactly. Dave, I’m just about out of time. Is there anything that you wanted to mention or thought Oh my gosh.
[00:51:16] Eric: I want him to ask and I haven’t asked,
[00:51:19] Dave: so I, I, thank you. Talking with me, . Well, I, no,
[00:51:23] Eric: actually, I thank you for
[00:51:25] Dave: talking with me. Yeah. I think at the end of the day, how can we make a difference? And I think having a be honest with you, I went back to that why that, that’s something I discovered later in life.
[00:51:36] Dave: Having a kind of your own motto, creed. And I think that’s important. You know, why are we doing this? Um, cuz people often focus on the monetary rewards and things like this and. It’s just opportunity to meet people, make a difference. And I think we all need to find a way making difference. For me, it’s through education.
[00:51:57] Dave: Um, right. And, and [00:52:00] I will say like, hang around these great people. Makes me want to be a better person. . So, so thank you Eric. You’re making me wanna be a better person. Thank you.
[00:52:08] Eric: First all. Thank you for the compliment. I do remember, and thank
[00:52:10] Dave: you Jane, Hal. I’m sorry, Jane. Who? Jane, Helen. Oh, thank you. Oh, drink
[00:52:16] Eric: bing.
[00:52:18] Eric: Uh, you know, I do remember, uh, earlier in my career going to conferences, a being exhausted, which sometimes I still am after a conference day, but b, being overwhelmed because I would see all these fantastic people and all these big names I’d been reading about in journal articles, and then going back to my.
[00:52:37] Eric: University going, oh my God, I’m never gonna be like them. And just being overwhelmed. And I think with age, even now, I can come and listen to amazing speakers and go, I don’t have to be like them. I can be inspired by them. I can take their ideas and try to implement the ones that work for me. And I think it took me a while to [00:53:00] realize I don’t have to be like the people.
[00:53:04] Eric: I see at conferences, I can’t be like the people I see at conferences, but I can’t take away the best of
[00:53:10] Dave: what I hear. And you still, you still be humbled by the amazing things that people do.
[00:53:14] Eric: I’m humble all the time. Um, I’m humbled all the time by the energy and, and the intellect and the generosity of contributions that I see at every conference I go to.
[00:53:25] Eric: And you. Linda Wolf gave a presidential address this morning and if I had asked her a question, I would’ve asked her. Okay, so the US sucks. Is there, is there anything positive going on? Uh, but it was good to see the data that she presented. It’s good to be reminded of that. I’m not an expert in that. So.
[00:53:45] Dave: Well, you, it’s speaking of that talk. Got me thinking about how do you approach these topics in classes where you’re encouraging people to actually listen. Being a social psychologist, I kept thinking belief, perseverance, which we are seeing in politics now. [00:54:00] Yeah. And I think, you know, how can I be a better person, be more aware or tuned to things.
[00:54:05] Dave: Um, and that’s why I appreciate Linda’s talk and I also appreciate interacting with students in class because they’ll help point out your blind spots. So I can become better. And the question is, how can we also help our students become better?
[00:54:18] Eric: Yeah. And that’s the, that’s the hard part of, of, um, opening up our students’ minds to consider new ideas while not being accused of the general, by the general public or parents of telling them what to think.
[00:54:32] Eric: Right? This is, this is the tight rope that we sometimes walk in higher
[00:54:36] Dave: education. Well, if we do it right, They should come to what they believe is the correct way of thinking. I’m not saying this quite right, but really it’s different from indoctrination. Right? Right. And education. And if we believe that this is, you know, social justice is important.
[00:54:59] Dave: [00:55:00] We should help them come to that same realization, same way we have, right. And just have
[00:55:04] Eric: the tools to be able to think about. And some of them already have those tools, but some of them, um, clearly don’t. Or they’re, they’re in development and hopefully they get a chance to develop them further in our classrooms.
[00:55:18] Eric: Anything else, Dave? I, I just don’t, I I don’t wanna forget anything. Any other books in the offering in the, in the coming or anything else?
[00:55:25] Dave: No, um, no, not, I’m just, um, trying to do my best man And you’re, and you’re doing and you’re, it’s, you know, I think, I think there’s value in, you know, if people around, I believe in the, you know, rising tide raises all ships, so if I help people do better, um, I’ll, I’ll make a difference in the way I can.
[00:55:47] Dave: Diehard,
[00:55:48] Eric: diehard Philly guy, aren’t you? E a
[00:55:49] Dave: g l e s. Birds go Bears. Uh, all I can say is I’m sorry for the bears, but anyway, [00:56:00] but I, I’m glad I will say this. At least you’re not Cowboys fan as a good Eagles fan would say. And that is for you Gary Lewandowski .
[00:56:10] Eric: We’re gonna end on that note. Thank you so much, Dave.
[00:56:12] Eric: Thank you, Eric.