E142 Marianne Lloyd (Part2)

It’s so good to see you. Can you hear me yet? Nope. This is, this is, this is the pro Marianne Lloyd. Hello, what’s going on? It’s nice to see you, Josh. It’s been a while. Oh my gosh. I got us recording already, so that’s fine.

What’s going on? What’s going on in this room? It looks like it’s my child’s room. Is it? Yes, because gosh, Rob has I didn’t in case we were not right, right on time. Rob has an interview for promotion at three o’clock. So he wants the office office. So it was sitting in the temple room. What are you what’s going on ahead?

Wow. So it’s like, there’s like a desk at the bottom and then there’s like a ladder. Oh, I can’t see. Cause the sunshine. And then this is her bed. Oh, that’s awesome. We have like your standards, 1920s colonial, which has to, you know, regular, which would be called tiny by McMansion style bedrooms and then like a nursery size room.

But yeah. Yeah, my kid, uh, when she they’re they’re about the same age, I think. Great. So when, when she got rid of her bed, what did you call that kind of bed? The one with the, a loft bed. When she got rid of hers, now, it wasn’t this big, but when she got rid of hers, I was like, okay, I don’t know where all your stuff’s going to go.

So now we just live in chaos. That’s just what we do. Oh, we live in chaos. Also. We both, we have a loft and chaos, so the loft doesn’t save you from half. My life is just. Trying to just clean up the chaos and then it just pushes back in. Yeah. Yeah. You’re fighting a battle that you won’t win. You need to embrace the chaos became a clutter blind.

It didn’t even move. I move well. And I should tell everybody who’s listening that and you, that what you’re going to hear is hammers right now, because we’re doing it. We’re in the middle of an addition, which is, you know, low stress thing to do during a pandemic. Yeah. That’s a great idea. There’s many strangers in your house as possible asking you questions and you’re fatigued.

I know. And then they should be wrong, like 10% of the time. And then, yeah, that’s good too. But, um, you know, uh, all. All things considered Marianne we’re here and we are, we’re talking, we are talking, it’s working. My internet connection has not been unstable yet, so that’s right. So it’s good to, it’s good to hear your voice, uh, not on ask psych session.

I mean, it’s good to hear it on SSI sec sessions, but now I’m like looking at you. I’m very familiar with this voice. Do you feel like this is like a thing you’d do now? This asks like sessions thing? Is it like, uh, the feeling very like, like second nature to, you know? Oh yeah. Yeah. I was like looking through my, uh, my spreadsheet.

It’s like when I meet people, I think what I’d like to talk to you about your teaching or. Right by the way, what’s going on with your mic stand here. Cause I’m just, we’re looking around your mic stand. Is it wobbly? No, it’s not wobbly. I just can’t see your face. Oh yeah. Oh, okay. Now I can see your face.

Look at that. Good. Good. Uh, are you looking through your mic, stand at your guests on asks it’s like sessions probably. Well, it sounds great. So. You know, like I’m such a tiny picture, so yeah, I guess their picture, it looks fine. I never paid attention to all my pictures. Great. And we only started video. It feels like five minutes ago, which I know is not true.

Zencaster cause I’m still hanging out on Zencaster. Oh, are you really? Yeah. Is that how you’re recording them? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Uh, I think I got lazy. I think I’m now like I’m zooming, although I was just at night hop and I think I did five face-to-face interviews. That’s so exciting. It was fun to be back in person.

I, people won’t understand, like people they’ll understand it, people will understand it, but they may not understand that people who are like, can you just do psych sessions through zoom? It seems like it’s a fine way to do it. Or through Zencaster. I don’t understand, but they do, but they don’t understand that it’s just, there’s a different energy in person.

It’s like teaching in person, right? Yes. Yeah. It’s I was, um, back in the classroom for the first time, in like a year and nine months, um, this week. And it was, it was electric. Yes. It was fun. Have you been, yes, we were in person last semester. We’ve been back in person. I had a sabbatical fall 2020. So I’ve been back one semester.

We are online for the first week and a half for now, but we’ll go back IRL. What was that like to go back? It was great. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean that’s far my, my preference by far. Right. Um, who are you, are you working mostly with undergraduate or graduate students? I can’t remember almost all undergrad because we do it.

We have a small and closing graduate program and experimental psych, so, okay. It’s going to only be undergrad soon. What are you teaching right now? I, we start next Wednesday. I’ll have two sections of research methods and our lab research experience class, which was meant to sort of standardize what students working in faculty labs are doing.

So half their grade comes from what they do over there. And then we have professional development presentations that sort of like a weekly class that does that stuff. It’s a fun one to teach. Yeah. Yeah, it sounds good. I, uh, when I first got handed a research methods course like 10 years ago, it was like, I think my colleague Michelle member at the time was, she was like, kind of burned out on it.

And so it only got taught once a year at the community college. And so she was like, do you want to try it? And I, I was scared, but I knew it was like something that I needed to do. I don’t come out of a strong research background. So, um, it was a real struggle as any new prep is, but now 10 years later, More than that.

Maybe it’s my absolute favorite course to teach. I love it. It’s uh, it’s so fun. And there’s so just, you can make choices constantly about where you want to focus and bring in contemporary conversations. And it’s, you know, I like the classes that students dread and then aren’t as bad at the end. Right.

They get to have that upswing. That’s the truth in that course. And I’m, I tell them that exact exactly. I, from the first day, um, what is your, like, is your research methods like a second year course or mostly third year? Mostly juniors. Yeah. So they take. If they come in as a psych major, they would probably do intro their first year stats, their second year and methods their third year.

And then it’s also often a third year class because we have lots of students that get into psychology after other majors. And so, you know, they come in at the end of sophomore at the beginning of junior year. Okay. Do you like that stats, uh, method sequence in that order? By the way? I know there’s no right answer.

I think I know. I mean, it’s not practical, but I think the dream would be to get, to keep, to combine them and to keep everyone for a year. But we have a bachelor of science degree option and they don’t have to take steps. They can take a mathematic space statistics class. So this is psych stuff, specifically psych stats.

Yeah. We teach our own in-house class. Yeah. This, uh, the students who’ve had stats in my research methods course. There’s always a couple. So my, like right now, I think I have 20 students in that methods course. And then a couple of them have stats and I know that they will Excel because it will click for them.

Like a lot of the things that we are talking about are going to click, but, uh, I’ve talked to enough people that I know the inverse is true too. That when now when these students take a stats course, it’s going to click in a different way. Right. So, yeah. Yeah. It’s like painting the whole picture or what.

I don’t know. Yeah. So, Hey, it’s good. It’s good. Now, is that, is that one of your favorite classes to teach? What do you like to teach? I think that it’s my favorite class to teach is the research methods. And I think not just because, excuse me, as you know, I think this is the, if you ignore my sabbatical semester, it’s been every semester since spring of 2018, that it is a one or two sections.

So it is my, you know, it is my bread and butter career. And when you teach a class that many times in a row, you can really change it incrementally in ways. I think that are helpful. I think, yeah, go ahead. I was just gonna say an add and change things, right? So it was not, I transitioned to specifications, grading and it last spring, because I felt so comfortable with the material that it felt fine.

To have that in, I haven’t taught undergrad Cox since 2010. So when I get to teach that again, right. I’m not sure, you know, some of that content. Yeah. You’re going to be not so fresh. And that’s your area, right? Yes. But it’s, you know, it’s a big, it’s a big umbrella and I do a little, no. Okay. I need to talk to you about research methods, specifications, grading.

Okay. So, okay. Uh, but before we get to that, because guess what? I just finished a boat faculty book circle today, and guess what? Right. 20 minutes before I was on the call with you, we finished a chapter eight on this, about motivation, uh, in specifications, creating. And in fact, Linda Nelson is going to come talk to our faculty.

Um, she’s been kind enough to donate an hour to just come talk to our faculty book circle, which is fun. Um, Before we get to that, your research methods class, are they actively doing research or because, uh, and I’ll just say that in my course, they are maybe doing like, they’re doing a simple survey assignment, but it’s simple, simple at the end, but really I am, I am trying to give them the whole, the whole landscape of research methods.

So we’re covering most of the chapters in a typical textbook for research methods. But how do you. Yeah, same, very consumer oriented approach. Right? So I use a Beth Moore links book, and most of our students are going to not become PhDs and researchers themselves. So I’m far more concerned with their ability to read a journal article and apply it to concepts, or to read a writeup of a journal article and find concepts in their students that would like to earn an a, in the course for specifications grading, they do an additional lab report and they do come up with something.

Most of them choose to do a pretty simple survey, but that still gives them a chance to think about how you. Pull out your data, analyze it. And, uh, I used your movie for stats analysis. Okay. But I’m far more interested in interpretation and thinking than I am in study creation. Right. So you are having them well, because they’ve taken stats so you can have them do some of that.

So yeah, I draw that line pretty firmly of not getting into any of the stats side. And so everybody has to figure, I, I think that everybody has to figure out where they draw that line. I draw that line of like, kind of understanding, uh, like having an understanding about what inferential and descriptive statistics are, but really not diving into that.

So hopefully it’s a, you know, it’s a solid foundation for, um, for when they do take stats, but okay. So. All right. So specifications, grading. I know you’ve interviewed at least one person about it, right? Tune S3, because I had two guests at this early on Erica Knowles in the Berkeley college of music. And then , I chatted with Ellen carpenter from Virginia Commonwealth and Katie Ann Scottsburg from central college. You already flirting with the idea of spec grading.

When you talk to them, like is, is ask psych sessions just to working out of your own pedagogy. Exactly. It’s a, it’s a working out of, I can’t do everything. Um, so yeah, when I talked to Erica, I had not tried it. And then when I spoke to, um, excuse me, Katie Ann and Ellen. Um, yes, we had finished, uh, I had finished my first semester with it and those two are very active on a slack group about specifications grading, which is why I asked them if they would be willing to come and chat.

Okay. Okay. So I think they did the act presentation on it too in October. Yeah, I did not see that. I wonder if I’m sure it’s recorded because they were right. And those things were recorded. So I got to go back and check that out, but anyway, um, yeah. I want to talk about ask questions here because I mean, there’s just so much good information that comes out of that.

Um, you know, it’s so different because, uh, on the, like the flagship site sessions, we go wherever. So if somebody does have a research area or whatever, we might touch on it, but, um, here for us sys psych sessions, you are really targeting, like we are going to learn about spec rating. That’s what we’re going to talk about here.

And, um, and so you really get far in that, but, okay. Tell me about how did it change the way that you approached your teaching or specifically your methods class? So what I liked about it was it forced me to be really deliberate about what I thought was essential for students. This is our prerequisite to their senior seminar.

And to make sure that students could achieve that. But then it also really led me to just giving more time and space for people that need more time and space to understand things. So I will say that the downside to specs grading is I probably spend more time grading than I did before, because I have made the choice that I would rather allow students to have reduced to show that they understand.

Then, you know, you turn it in and you got kind of a partial credit grade and we’re just going to move along. Right. I’m not holding them accountable to meeting specifications. I allowed a lot of reduced, probably more than some people might, which she calls tokens tokens. I do call them tokens chances to own them.

And the trouble is it’s confounded. Right? I’m doing this in the middle of a pandemic. Yeah. So I do feel a strong need to have far more compassionate. For their mistakes for their needing delays for my mistakes. Right? Like I predict that probably if you were to do a sample of my teaching, it may not be as strong because I am also fatigued and tired by all of this.

So, um, yeah. So I think that’s the big thing. And then it’s, you know, I like the piece where students have a say in how much they want to do for a grade and you can set up a class so that they can not necessarily, you know, do I have journal responses, right. They don’t need to do all of the journal responses, uh, to earn a B in the course, but there’s going to be a question on the celebration of learning slash exam about each journal articles.

So they still need to have learning. Thank you, Dr. Hunter, who gave me that term to use. Um, yeah, so it’s not, you know, I think some people think, well, students just, aren’t going to blank and I think you can structure the class. So. Not everyone needs to be at the level of the person that loves methods so much that they’re going to spend their lives teaching it.

Right. Hopefully you get a couple of those every semester, but that’s not, you know, students are also, they have rich full lives. So I think it’s helped me to be, uh, just much more deliberate and think about also what is, um, what is a line for what’s enough and for an exam, I say it’s an 80%. If you can get 80% of the exam, I consider that credit.

You get a little count in your tally, mark for exams. Okay. And then if they get all those, I mean, do you guys use letter grades at your institution? Okay. So really are you saying that turns into an a, in the end. And they have to, so the way I set it up is they have to get a certain number of each item in the course.

So there’s a, the online chapter quizzes journal, article responses I use socio-emotional learning exercises, lab papers, a cumulative final that everyone needs to successfully complete. I think those are all the pieces. Um, and so the higher grades require more of each of those items. So someone that gets an, a needs to passed all three celebrations of learning someone that’s gonna earn chooses to earn a C they only need to pass one, but they’re gonna need some of that stuff to pass the cumulative final.

Right. So the really, really, really important stuff is, yeah. So to get an a, in your course does not mean being perfect. Not at all. Yeah. Nope. Nope. You can be 80% on every chapter quiz for things like the journal responses. I am picky. Yeah. And you can’t misuse terms and that’s why you have redo tokens.

Right. So you can’t say this is an association claim when it’s set up as a causal claim, but that’s fine because it’s not like you make that mistake and you can’t go back and fix it because I care about understanding. Yeah. How can you, so the subtitle of the book, uh, one of the things it says is saving faculty time.

That’s not your experience though. So what are you, what are you doing wrong, Marianne? I think I’m doing it in a pandemic, right? This book was written during a pandemic. And I probably, I mean, I think that’s one thing, but I also think that I maybe haven’t scaffolded enough. So I am putting in more scaffolding next semester.

So for when they turn in a lab, They also need to turn in kind of an assessment that says, you know, here are the pieces, here’s the specifications. Tell me on which page you have done all of these items and for the journal responses, it’s a four part piece. Now I’m just putting a model in that the one where they get into trouble is that, uh, the third section requires them to relate.

What’s in the journal article to six things that are from the textbook or from our class time. And sometimes they only do four. Well, now there are six, the numbers one through six are listed right there. Right. So there needs to be stuff in all six of those. So I think that is part of it. Right? I am. Yeah.

You don’t to tell you don’t you didn’t know what you yeah, of course, of course. And so that’s just like the growth, but no, it’s cool. Uh, I’ve been, I’ve been kind of sprinkling it into my courses and I think, I think that I might go full on, we’ll see, I’m coming. I’m I’m hopefully going to have a sabbatical next year.

I’m applying for it. And so that’d be one of the things I’d like to do is, um, kind of mess around with spec writing a little more intentionally, um, and especially in the scaffolding stuff takes time. To put in and yeah, I don’t know because when they just get a grade and they accept it, but it doesn’t force you to think about how you could have done the assignment better, whereas when they’re coming back, because they want to earn credit, that gives you more chances.

There’s a really great article that just came out. That sort of is like a map for like, should, what are the risk factors? Like who’s in really good shape to do it and who’s in less good shape. And one of the things that makes specs more appealing is if you’re teaching material that you are already super familiar and comfortable with, and it’s maybe not the best idea for stuff that you’re not feeling a solid on, and it’s better if you know, you have tenure or a lot of job security, it’s not as good if maybe you don’t.

It’s great. If you’re in a department that encourages teaching innovation, maybe less great otherwise. So that’s, that’s a helpful, I think, roadmap to about students. Are you telling me that students look at your, do you have an, a, B and C option? Yeah, I have a minus B plus B B minus C plus C minus D plus D.

Yeah. I mean, they need a C minus or higher for methods to go on to. What if they say now? Do they choose upfront? No. Oh, I see. Okay. So they’re not like, I think the way that Milson talks about it is that you choose which track you’re going to go on. And then maybe that is something you do internally. Right?

You look at these options and you choose. Do you talk about that at the beginning of the course? I do. I talk about it, um, a lot. And I also talk about the ways that they, you know, have opportunities to shift and, and change. I mean, one thing that I have to do a better job with is helping them feel more confident that they’ll have enough tokens to be okay.

And that part of why they may not get credit early on is because they’re getting used to me and my expectations. Yeah. And so, and they’re getting used in this class to reading a lot of journal articles, right. By the ninth journal article, they’re all doing really great, but that’s partly because they’ve read eight other journal articles, cluster articles for their lab paper.

They just get better when you practice. So, um, some students, they get paranoid and so then they hoard token. Early on. Cause they’re worried. They’ll need them, you know, like, well, what if the cumulative final is a total disaster, even though I try to present statistics about how it’s not, but they’re like, well, maybe I need to save for tokens because I can’t pass the class with that.

And it’s like, well, that’s not really the goal of the chemo to find out the goal. I tell them the goal of the cumulative finalists so that when you’re in senior seminar with one of my colleagues, who’s also a friend they’re like, did you forget to teach in methods? Because I have some concerns about the base information.

Yeah. Your cumulative final is, uh, is there, is there a token option for that? So anything, uh, that they are doing for the first time they automatically get to redose. Um, so, and I consider the cumulative final to be separate from the other celebrations of learning. So there’s even some built-in flexibility there because my thought is that, you know, the first time I, I don’t want to just do two because sometimes the second time, if my feedback isn’t super clear.

And students, you know, some of them are more and less willing to ask clarifying questions, man, doesn’t have that third. It’s the ideal way to teach it really is. If, if you can figure out that workload piece, uh, because it, yep.

Can you hear me? I lost audio, but you’re back. Okay. Are you still there? I am still here. Yeah, but I’ve moved to unstable. All right. Okay. Is this, is this because, uh, your husband is. Online right now knows, you know, you cursed it at the beginning when you said our internet has been stable. That’s right. I think you said that maybe verbatim, so, okay.

I don’t remember what question I was asking, but anyway, thank you for indulging me about specifications, grading. Um, so, you know, I guess we could, I kind of want to talk about asks like sessions, but is there anything else that you’ve been up to during this pandemic? Cause it’s been a long time since you’ve been on the podcast like this in this way, just 16 months, but they were like a long, 16 months.

It was a long, 16 months. Yeah. Did you relisten to our conversation before. I talked to me either. Okay. Now I might repeat stories. Well, I have tagged you as maybe somebody who do that, but no, hi, guess there, that is not an unfair disposition accusation, but what one, instead of doing that with an accreditation standards committee meeting and a meeting about our degree work software implementation.

Wow. Yeah, that sounds really interesting. Um, uh, so what have you, uh, what are you listening to podcast wise these days? Are you, uh, are you, have you, have you given up on that? Are you still an avid listener? Oh, wow. I’m an avid 1.5 speed listener. Would you like to know by day? My preferred I, I would. And by the way, I’m I’m with you now and I’m talking 1.75 audio books up to two points.

Also 2.0 on the audio book, audio books are slow, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I get that, that might help me absorb into them, but I, then I become impatient. I do. If I am doing a jigsaw puzzle while listening to an audio book, sometimes I have to slow down a little bit because I won’t be paying enough attention.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. Uh, then, then do you find after listening to audio books on 2.0, that the world’s just too slow if I try to then yeah. Right. Like be with things that are existing at a proper pace. I mean, I do while doing it. I, I acknowledge that this is not living in, you know, it’s not living a mindful life.

Right. Like being patient to present. But we, we listen to these things fast so that we do make the space to be mindful right later. Right. More space for mindfulness. Exactly. Painfulness this for the afternoon, by day by day. So, whatever, what are you listening to Monday? I listened to Sarah heart hungers best laid plans podcast, which is about planners, planning and planning a decent topics.

Um, because I, I don’t know, I just enjoy like a good niche. Like I have a planner, but I don’t, I don’t have any of the accessories or anything, but the idea of listening to other people’s enthusiasm, I don’t always get to it. But dear Hank and John, the green brothers, they have their kind of listener questions show.

I know it’s often funny and quirky, whatever people write in about like, what should I do about this situation with my roommate? What is your favorite kind of potato chip? Like what? So John Green and Hank green are both authors. I think John’s a little more well-known turtles all the way down and. The other one I can’t think of right now, the Alaska one, um, Tuesdays, the another mother runner podcast, psych sessions usually releases something on every other Tuesday, long form Wednesdays.

I like happier with Gretchen Rubin. Thursday’s the spin-off show happier in Hollywood, not your average runner, which is high for swearing. I should warn people if they’re going to download that. Not your average runner is about running it’s about running. Oh yep. Inclusive running specifically. Right? So not like track superstar running like, oh, people of older ages, larger sizes, things like that.

Um, but mostly about like the mental piece, which is translatable across lots of things. And by the book podcast, which is one of my favorites, which are people living by self-help books in two week intervals, Friday is also another mother runner. Oh, Thursday reply all when they have new episodes code switch, I think is a third room stay release.

It’s still processing. They’ve been on hiatus. I think those are the ones that, oh, oh, um, the slowdown, which puts out a poem almost every day. That’s a good one to listen to. And just a few minutes, that’s the one where I really feel like I should not be listening to this on set of intervals, but you do.

But I do because I’d have to unlock my phone and change the speed. Right. Um, and then that made a different one fall out of my brain that I, a regular listener to, um, yeah. Oh, family secrets, uh, which is her memoir, um, was about finding out through genetic testing that her, you know, her father was not her biological father.

Um, and so now she interviews people often who’ve written memoirs that have. Yeah. She says, you know, the secrets, we keep people keep from us the secrets we keep from them, the secrets we even keep from ourselves. And those are often very compelling interviews. Uh, where are you finding the time? I know.

Because it’s fast, it’s less time, but where are you finding the time to do this? Do you have a routine? A daily routine? Yeah. So I have waterproof headphones, so I listen in the shower. I listen, if I’m exercising by myself, which isn’t often, and my running partner lives across the street. Um, I listen like on my short commute to, and from work.

I’ll listen, if I’m cooking. Um, yeah, I would say any, any time, if it’s a really simple data analysis, like I’m just downloading spreadsheets and, you know, cutting, pasting, merging, I’ll do it then as well. Yeah. It’s but I don’t, I should say that’s the media that I consume. I do not watch shows. Like if anyone starts a question with, have you watched, unless the answer is Encanto, which we watched his family this weekend.

Nope. Nope, no Ted lasso. No shit’s Creek, no succession. No. I listened to shows where people tell me about what happens in those shows. So I’m culturally aware of the last episode of succession, season three, just for any listeners out there. Oh my gosh. And that’s it. Okay. But for succession now I need to say this as well.

I’m sorry. You have to push through the first few episodes. You have to. I tried it twice before I could get into it, and then it was, um, but you know what, if, you know, if, if you don’t like things that make you anxious or depressed about humanity probably don’t watch it because it’s, it’s an awful, these are awful people.

So, um, but I love succession. So, and see, I cannot handle that. I would score very highly on any kind of absorption scale. It is. It all feels very real to me. So that does not feel enjoyable to me. And okay. And so I said, yeah, like I know what an absorption scale is, but is that a scale that we actually have?

So it is a scale. This is like, where I should ask is when you have secondary knowledge. So, uh, Steve Lynn was a clinical psychologist in my program. I was friends with some of his grad students. And so it was a predictor of whether or not people would think they were, would be hypnotizable was their level of absorption.

And this is sort of like when you’re watching a movie, just really feel, that’s the one thing I remember it’s like, does it feel like this is happening? And I was like, of course it does, but for other people that does not feel that way. So, you know, I, my ability to cry it, I can, you know, walk into it. I can watch two minutes of like the last 15 minutes of a show and I can just start to cry.

There’s something sad happening. I can watch like a Geico, commercial and cry. Yeah. What is that? Absorption works. My wife, maybe not, they can not, they can call him, correct me. And say you were really misremembering that conversation from 2004. Well, that’s fine. You know, we just make truth up as we go now in our society.

I think so. We’re fine. Uh, my wife was watching a show. I should remember it cause that would make this story more interesting. Uh, we were, we were watching the show and. Was just, it made me feel so yucky that I had to stop. And I’m not the kind of person who stops, but I was just, I think I was absorbed. I think that’s the word I’m looking for?

Yes. What are you doing in the evenings then? If you’re not watching your favorite show, are you listening to something? Are you actually talking to your kiddo and your spouse? Or what are you doing? I could tell you specifically because, uh, oh, that’s what I forgot the best of both worlds is a Tuesday podcast, which is about enjoying parenting and your life.

And Laura Vander cam is a time management person has, is doing a time tracking challenge this week. So I can tell you what I’m doing in the evenings. You know, it’s usually some dinner and then some, yeah, some family. Sometimes we might play a card game or work on homework. Um, but then we have, you know, fifth grader and they recommend a half an hour of reading every night.

So, you know, by eight 30 it’s reading time and then tuck it. And then I go to bed because I need to sleep a good seven or so hours. And I’m an aggressive morning person. And I like to have time before I work out to have coffee and do the New York times crossword puzzle using auto check. So it’s not too difficult.

I’m not interested in exhausting my brain. Yeah. So, yeah. So I’m, I’ve got lights up between nine 30 and 10, almost always. So there isn’t a lot of evening, I guess I would say certainly not evening without a child. Around what time are you up? Um, I set an alarm between five and five 30 usually. Oh yeah.

That’s okay. That’s reasonable for. Yeah, for me, I love, I love aggressive mornings. That’s good. Aggressive mornings. Yeah. I want to be up. Yeah. Uh, I find myself like my new thing in the morning. You’ll love this. Uh, do you know Henry? Nowan the author? Uh, Yale, uh, he’s. He’s passed now. He’s a Yale divinity, uh, professor.

He was a priest. Um, anyway, he wrote so many good books, but I’ve been listening to his books and, uh, I was just challenged to like, find these I’m very bad at mindfulness, by the way. So I’ve been sitting in the dark for like the first 20 minutes of my morning, just in silence with nothing just sitting 20 minutes.

Yeah. I just said really long time. Yeah. Just fight thoughts, just fight, fight, fight, fight. But I don’t think you’re supposed to fight them in mindfulness. Right. You’re supposed to be. I do. I love, I love them. Yeah. But I’m just saying that they come, they do come getting there. You’re an intellectually stimulated person.

Of course. Yeah. Yeah. But I love the practice. I think it’s so good. It’s I think it’s just such a, everything else is loud in my world. I’ve got headphones in most of the time. Um, you know, they’re just very, there are rare moments, like I guess sleep is when I’m quiet, so, or when I’m not listening or take consuming something.

So I love this, uh, as a spiritual practice, I think it’s like, um, I think it’s good. Uh, it’s obviously cross-cultural, you know, people like all kinds of, uh, groups have meditation practices and stuff like that. So I am. I, I recently took the big five again. I was like, surely I know that I am now introverted.

I know that I’ve grown. Uh, you know, I’m changed now. I’m a different person. I like myself. I like my own company a little bit more as I’ve gotten older, took it full on extroverts, still just, yeah. Pop my balloon. So, so this is good for me. It’s good to balance me. It is good. It is. That is wow. 20 minutes.

Yeah. I have a, I like lists. So one of my goals for 2022 is to meditate for at least 2.2 minutes, 22 days a month. So not like one 10th of your, oh, you know what I, uh, I think if you do that, I’ll give you an, a, you meet that outcome. Yeah, exactly. She doesn’t have to be perfect. No, no. Um, all right. Well, okay, so that’s your podcast schedule?

That’s fantastic. Um, what has it been like to. To talk to so many instructors about, um, topics that you find. Interesting. And, um, so let me just lead with that, for it, for ask, ask sex sessions what’s happened, like, I mean, it feels like a gift, right? It’s like an extrovert’s dream to get, to meet so many new to me, people that are doing really good, important work and let that work be known by more people than, you know, the people in their department or the students in their classes.

And it’s been good kind of personally, professionally, just to sort of think to just hear things that I would not intersect otherwise, because they’re just. Part of what I do, what I read and how I was trained. Right. So, you know, Christina, uh, zebra, I was just on, and you’re talking about motivation, which I’d kind of gotten a sentence and I’d heard her give a talk, like, you know, we can talk about testing effects all day, but students have to choose to self test.

So we need that piece first. Right. I never took a motivation class as an undergrad. I don’t teach her motivation class. Yeah. So places like that, it just, it opens up information that I might not have seen. And that is, I think often, you know, important, important for my students, um, in terms of. Them having a better experience.

So I think that’s, what’s been really great about it. And then sometimes being able to make connections across that, right. Like someone will say like, oh, I kind of have this question about this. I was like, oh, well I think you should meet so-and-so because they, I just talked to them about this. Yeah. A connector you’re you’re you’re becoming a connector.

Yeah. That’s your happy place, right? It’s connecting with people. Yes. Um, okay. So sometimes I forget, but, uh, did you interview Clementine. I did not for IO psychology. Right. IO, psychologist. I interviewed Derek Avery. Okay. Okay. So it was somebody else, I guess maybe it was, I think it was Janet Peters who was telling about the you interview, Valerie Jones, Taylor, twice.

She came on for the original EDI series and then came back to talk about what to do when you get pushback, either from your students or from your colleagues about trying to move your class. Well, well, we’ll play the future game, which is, uh, well, thanks for making that introduction because a couple of weeks ago I interviewed her a long form because I recognized her name because you interviewed her and it was fantastic.

It was so we did a long form. I cannot wait to listen. I know, I know. So I really appreciate that you have found these people. How are you finding. Uh, so just sometimes it’s the STP page. They may comment sometimes when I have a specific question that I want to answer, when someone wrote in to ask about IO psychology, like I went to the APA division that did IO psychology and sort of looked at who was on their board and who was doing what?

And I cold email them. Uh, a future episode is going to be from someone that wrote, uh, I get a weekly newsletter and she had been the guest SAS for that. Um, sometimes people have come back to me. So, uh, Jasmine MENA, uh, who was on a couple of months ago, she went and heard someone talk and was like, oh, I think this person would be good.

So I emailed them. Um, so lots of sushi. By the way, I’ve just had the opportunity to work with Jasmine, uh, in this last year, which was fantastic. Uh, but she knew what you do. And then she reached back out to you and said, Hey, you might want to think about this person. Yeah. She’d just been a guest. And we’d sort of talked about like my overall goals for the podcast and how I ended up, uh, cause I had heard her speak at the decolonizing psychology conference that Columbia teachers college, I want to say put on.

Um, so yes, then she said, oh, I just heard this other person talk. Since you sounds like you were trying to, you know, pick people to be on the podcast, maybe, maybe get in touch. Oh, that’s great. And I keep, you know, in terms of, if people are like, how do you organize? I use a Trello board. So I keep like future guests ideas.

I’ve emailed them. I’m waiting. There are people that want me to follow up later. Um, and so that’s how I sort of keep track of who I’m keeping my eye on lots of organization options out there, but Trello’s yours. Huh? For that kind of thing, just because I started it. Right. I’m a big believer in good enough.

Right. Trail is working. Good enough. So I’m not going to try to find some optimized. Do you use it in other areas? I do like I have like where I just sort of like have like a generic life board. Right. It’s like, you know, like keeping just like things that I don’t want to lose track of. Um, so for example, I’m on a, I’m on a board and months and months ago, someone said, here’s the person you’re going to need when you need payments made, but I didn’t have any payments coming for the future.

So I like to put that information on that board when I needed it to find it. Cause if you just, you know, sometimes I find that the outlook search or the Google search, if it’s not a distinctive enough word, it’s not going to give me what I need. So I use it for things like that. I’ve tried to use it when I’ve had TA’s in a class to kind of do class structure organizing, but I did not find it helpful, but I mean, other people use that as just like they’re full on project management.

Yeah. I haven’t gotten to that level. I have a problem. I cannot, you know what my strategy is right now, I go through. I keep things that I need to get done in email and like in my inbox. So those work their way out over time. Um, but so that’s at any given time at it’s at 10, cause it could be something that is coming up.

It just hasn’t happened yet. And so, but I know, so that is one strategy. My other one, it works. I just don’t think it’s great. Uh, it’s a word document and uh, it’s called to do and um, and it’s just a large, large list of stuff to do. Um, and then the things that are really important get, get pushed. I kind of moved them to the top of it, which I guess is fine, but I’ve tried Trello and, and um, probably a couple other things ever note and, um, And I just can’t stick with them and I don’t know why I’m not sure.

Yeah. I mean, I think we could probably talk for a long time and get to the bottom of this, but I would say if you’re not forgetting to do important things, then the to-do list is fine. Like, I use a Google doc every week that I just put the date and then I just divided into teaching research service other, and I just put down the things that have to happen.

And then I highlight them when I did them. And then when they don’t get done that week, I copy and paste them to the next week. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that’s cool because now you have a record of those weeks too, in case you have to write like a yeah. A review or something. Yes, I a report. Right, right. Or if it’s like, when did that thing happen?

Yeah, it can. Yeah. Oh, that’s interesting. Okay. So that’s how you organize. How are, so you’re organizing on using Google doc basically, but why are you using Trello for a second? ’cause I liked that I could put up the different cards with the different kind of spaces so I can have like the, you know, done recording, check back in ideas for the future.

Okay. Just, you know, any kind of other thoughts cards and I can tweak the cards around. Yeah. Okay. Uh, you said that, uh, when Jasmine reached back out to you, she said, um, that you were telling her kind of what your goals were, what the, what the podcast was kind of all about, what, what has it become for you?

And, um, obviously from the time you started. I can’t remember exactly when you started, but like there was a pandemic there’s, um, you know, these cultural movements that have been going on. Um, and I suspect from your choices of interviewees and content and stuff like that, that some of that’s worked its way in, but I’ll, I’ll let you answer, which is, and, and the question is what is, what is the goal for us asks like sessions?

Yeah. I mean, I think a primary goal is to make sure that I am highlighting voices from people whose identities have been historically excluded in psychology. Um, and I haven’t fully read the apology that APA put out, but I think that it was pretty transparent that there’s a history of racism in the field.

Um, So that sort of like, there’s that piece, like, who am I, who am I giving, uh, whose voice is being heard and then the content. So when possible, when people, uh, you know, I think that the, at least for me what some of this work has made me realize is almost any topic you’re talking about. Whether you directly address equity, diversity, or inclusion, equity, diversity inclusion is impacting what you’re doing in all of your teaching.

So bringing that to the forefront, um, has been important and looking at ways, you know, that how it can kind of, it pops in maybe, you know, like one of the things I like about specs grading is I think if it’s done well, it can be more inclusive, you know, for students that need more time or space or, um, just, you know, some people, they just don’t learn things as fast, right?

So Y. I mean, other than the labor of the faculty member to them to have to do some regrading. But if my goal for a methods class, which I think is really essential for a psychology major, which we could talk about that maybe my obsession with research methods is a sign that I have not fully embraced diversity equity inclusion either, right.

Because it’s, uh, can be, um, it can, you know, that way of knowing as being overly superior, maybe isn’t ideal either. Um, so I think that that’s, you know, it’s really changed the way that I am thinking about how I teach and about who my students are hearing about. So I think that’s been, um, one big goal and I, I hope also it’s just the people get the sense that, you know, they can’t do everything.

And so it’s really important to figure out what authentically works well for you on any, you know, any kind of topic. Yeah. And I assume anyone that’s listening to this podcast, like wants to be a more effective teacher, otherwise, why would you spend your minutes listening about, right, right. Well, okay. So tell me, uh, when, if, if I was doing asks I sessions, um, it would probably be re um, really like the, the perspective that I would be asking these questions from would be really my perspective my classroom.

But I do sense that you are thinking more broadly about other instructors when you interview folks that it’s, uh, it’s not, you’re not just kind of projecting yourself into what they’re doing, even though you’re benefiting for sure. Right. Um, from the expertise of people that you’re talking to. But how are you thinking about the audience when you’re asking these.

Yeah, I do try to think that people have, when you think about all the ways there are to be teaching a psychology course, it’s everything from the very niche, tiny seminar style, selective liberal arts, you know, eight highly invested students to a thousand people in a lecture hall and, uh, you know, uh, a state university.

Um, and so I do try to also bring on guests that have various teaching experiences in that. Um, you know, we had a guest, uh, that taught many hundred people in an asynchronous online class. Right. How do you, how do you manage that? Um, and I think that is just, I think that’s just a function of. Personality that I just think about people all the time.

And when I think about people, I think about those, those factors about them. Um, there’s a term on the happier and, uh, Hollywood podcast about being cluttered blind. Like you don’t notice the clutter around you. Like, I, I have a little bit of clutter blind for stuff, but I do know, I don’t think like I have a people blind, right?

Like that’s like what other people might consider that might be clutter for other people, those details. Like, I don’t think of that as clutter. Right. I think of that is like what makes people interesting and their experiences. And so it’s important to me that. That I’m, that I’m being, uh, taking that into account when I’m thinking about the content that I, yeah, you’re absorbed.

Yeah, no, it definitely comes through. It’s a really, I feel like it is accessible to a wide audience. Uh, the way that you’ve, you’ve done it, uh, I didn’t give you any of these questions ahead of time, but I’m now just asking kind of as a friend, but, uh, what, what have you, what have you learned about the skill of kind of interviewing over the, how long have you been at this now this ask sex sessions thing?

Um, like a year and a half. I want to say change from the beginning. To now. I mean, I approached it definitely less nervous, um, like worried about how it’s going to go. Cause I found that usually people that are willing to come on the podcast, they’re also pretty go with the flow and, you know, I’ve gotten better about kind of sending a kind of preview.

Like here’s what I think I’ll do, you know, we’ll talk, you’ll introduce yourself. And then here’s the main question. And then I usually use that to ask a sub question and then I often give a chance for you to talk about something, which please don’t tell me what it is in advance. Cause I think that’s kind of fun to be surprised about what the result is.

Um, so I think, you know, Having more specific instructions for students. I think it’s been better to give specific instructions to my guests. I think that’s one place where I feel like I’ve noticed some changes and then

that’s probably the big one. I would have to think about other other pieces. Can we do a qualitative analysis? Yeah. Um, so you have folks lined up at this point, I’m sure. And you have people in your Trello board that you’re thinking about. Uh, and, um, when you look back, uh, so in my head, I just went from the future to the back to looking back.

But when you, when you look back, uh, are there any, not your favorites, not any that were better than others, nothing like that, but just personally, were there any that really changed the way that. Kind of thought about yourself or teaching or kind of like you look back on, you said that was a really important conversation for me and for my audience, any particular episodes that we could kind of guide people towards?

Yeah. I’ll pick two. Okay. Um, that came to my, came to mind first. Um, so one was what ended up being the first EDI talk with, uh, Dr. Stacy de fritas, um, which we had already signed up before we decided to make a series and what she encouraged me to do in my methods class. Cause I was already having students read articles about bias and racism, but they were pretty much exclusively comparing the experiences of black and white college students.

She said, you need to make sure that you’re reading things that speak to the identities in your classroom. And so well, this’ll be the third semester now. Um, cause yeah, we had that talk in the summer and then I went sabbatical. So when I came back, I started serving the students and asking them. What do you want to read about?

And what’s important to you and using a much broader lens of, uh, thinking about inclusivity and the student responses to that have been. Really telling about how beneficial that was and the most, you know, recency effect. The last article we read last semester is a comparison of I’m going to lose the second term it’s bilingualism research.

And basically, did you learn your two languages together or one after the other and the degree that predicts the degree to which you do cultural blending of those two languages, right? If these are both part of your, of your heritage, as opposed to, you know, if I just went to learn a language that isn’t part of my, of, of my culture.

Um, so many students, because what they write in the beginning of these journal responses is about their experience reading. They said it was so great to read an article, but I can so clearly relate to because I am this kind of bilingual or wow. This helped me understand my parent who was this kind of bilingual because they moved when they were this age and learned English second.

And, you know, I can see the way that I can, you know, blend my. You know, Puerto Rican and whatever we call New Jersey culture together. Um, all right. Recognizing that Puerto Ricans are United States citizens as well. Uh, so that, I mean, I, I said I sent her an email after that, after I graded those and just said, you know, thanks so much because it, you know, it’s like one of those blind spots doesn’t occur, doesn’t occur and, and made a difference for students.

So that one very important. The second one was, um, when I spoke to Chrissa and I’m going to lose, um, G R E w E S from Utah state university about, um, lab research and having it be a virtual experience and how that can be so much more inclusive for students. Um, either that have family responsibilities, uh, mobility, uh, disabilities, you know, so that they could not, you know, physically get in and out of a laboratory chronic health issues.

Um, and so as we’ve been in my department talking about our requirement of experience for students, trying to make sure that that is as inclusive as it can be. So I think those were two that it’s like, I can feel myself in a meeting being like, oh, I think we need to talk about this thing that I know about because I interviewed this person and they reminded me that this is important.

So I think those were the, the two places. And then I just think like broadly, generically.

Hopefully more sensitive than I was before to the ways that systemic racism and inequality is playing out places, which I can call out as a full professor, friendly Midwestern white lady, probably more so than some of my colleagues. Sure, sure. Uh, well, I’ve seen you kind of dive into this and if you were like me, uh, you were probably not very sure of how to educate yourself about all these things.

There’s a lot of difficulty, um, you know, at the beginning, at the beginning, I don’t know how to say this, but, uh, anyway, what I want to say is it’s just evident that you have been personally committed to this and that it has been very helpful for us to go along on the, on the journey with you. I’m sure you’ve had to encounter.

A lot of your own blind spots or, uh, you know, not knowing how to say something in, uh, like, uh, uh, uh, an inclusive way, or maybe catching yourself saying things and saying, oh, I know that’s not right. But anyway, it takes, um, yeah, it does take some courage to be able to kind of get into these conversations as a, uh, even as a, a white lady from the Midwest.

And, um, and so I just want to say that it’s been, uh, it’s been, it’s been helpful to listen as a white guy, uh, from the Northwest. Um, it’s been helpful to listen to these things and I’m so happy that, uh, that we are hearing these voices. Uh it’s uh, yeah, it’s good. It’s really good. I mean, but just to sort of add onto that, I think that that’s one other thing that I sort of shifted as I’ve just become very kind of transparent about it too.

Set up interviews. And I, and I say, you know, if you look at the archives, you’ll see, I talk about the stuff. That’s not the topic that you’re here for. I welcome you. If you want to talk about this, if it comes up fantastic, but I don’t require it. So I think that I’ve also just become a lot more comfortable.

I mean, I think that, you know, part of what inspired it originally, just to throw the compliment back to you is you had a long form interview with Loretta McGregor. Um, and she kind of talked about, uh, that sometimes there was a lack of inclusivity in, um, in our, in our field. Maybe I can’t remember, she was talking specifically about STP or not in the field, in the field.

And so, you know, that sort of felt like, okay, If that exists, I’m sure that’s not unique experience. What can I be doing to try to not perpetuate that? How can I not be creating a cool kid’s lunch table with my podcast, but how can I be making an arena or a, maybe not an arena. That’s a lot more than 50 episodes, but you know, not a, it’s not nothing, it’s not nothing.

Uh, it is interesting to hear somebody’s perspective like Loretta is, which is, um, so many of us have had such a great experience in STP. It’s so inclusive. It’s so not like maybe like, like non-teaching psychology circles, right. Or whatever academic circles. Uh, and we, we sing the praises of, uh, you know, how easy it is to get involved and, you know, uh, but we shouldn’t forget, uh, that that is not everybody’s, uh, experience.

Even with a great organization. And so I’m glad, you know, and our organizations, APA STP, they’re taking a good steps, at least, um, public like public acknowledgement, sorts of steps that hopefully turn into real action. So that’s good. Yeah. Um, Marianne, I, uh, I have to jump out to a meeting soon, but, um, is there anything that we didn’t talk about that you, you wanted to talk about?

Yeah, I was just gonna say one more pandemic shift, which is that, you know, in the beginning, I was very rigid about having content for every other week. But I think that, you know, also thinking about issues of inclusivity, I’ve become a lot more relaxed, right? People say, I don’t have time now. I have time in months from now.

So that’s why you weren’t hearing episodes every other week as a guaranteed, as they were before, because I’ve sort of decided that I would rather kind of wait for people to be ready and to have time that said, if listeners want to submit some more questions, um, because a lot of what I’ve been doing has been just based on my own interests or things I noticed that I think would be helpful.

So you can either, you can get some more questions or suggest some guests, but I did want to say that this shift that I’ve made in the pandemic, cause this is not needing to, um, be so rigid and aggressive, right. There’s tons and tons and tons of podcasts, um, and tons of back catalog. So yeah, I just want it to really be honest that I’m someone that’s been, you know, trying to be, uh, again, more deliberate and conscientious there.

Well, I’m, uh, I’m excited now when there is something interesting that happens when they don’t come out so regularly, it’s kind of exciting to see one pop up. Right. It really is. Um, uh, but to that point, I was going to ask you, oh, uh, where do folks send in questions? Do you know off the top of your head? I can’t remember our Bitly address, but we’ll put it in the show notes.

It’s in the show notes folks. Right. And I, I will not give you the wrong address a whole lot. I think it’s Bitly back or forward slash ask. Yes, I think so ask, oh gosh. Um, by the way, do you know the difference between a, a forward slash and a backslash? Because I’ve been saying backslash forever and their forwards lashes generally, so, oh yes, because the it’s under the question.

So, but I suppose that one above the enter key that I’m looking at right now with technically be the backs. Uh, yes. So this is we, I was correct B I T dot L Y forward slash ask psych sessions, all lower case. And then, uh, what the, the question on that form is what questions do you have related to teaching, or what would you like to hear seasoned instructors address in a conversation?

Is that fair enough? That’s definitely fair enough. Okay. Okay. So, um, I guess I do have a question, Marianne, cause we know that people are listening to ask like sessions, we get the numbers. What is it? Why? Uh, and maybe this is a back channel conversation probably, but let’s just do it publicly. Why don’t we get more engagement?

Why? Because people definitely have questions. Do people. Yeah. Why, why don’t we have people submitting lots of questions. Cause, um, if not Marianne and I have a million questions. So, but when you say one thing is people can use the STP Facebook page to get like sort of instant answers. Right? So you have a pressing question, you need to know like, what articles should I assign about this topic, where my students always get stuck, waiting for an interview to come out.

It’s not the most effective in time. Yeah, exactly. And I, you know, I think that, um, I think that some people just they’re like just listen to whatever ends up on there and that’s, and that’s fine. Um, so yeah. Yeah, those are my off the cuff. The website works, people have submitted well, and I’ll tell you why the, um, of the IES.

Yes. And people do submit questions, but I will, I’ll tell you why. It’s really important listener that we get your questions is because one of Marianne’s values obviously is, uh, hearing from the community and representing the community. Uh, and so, uh, of, of, of psychologists out there and teachers of psychology.

So, um, to have your questions and your perspectives is really important to, uh, what we’re trying to accomplish here through ask psych sessions. How was that for an answer? I think that’s a great answer. Yeah. I mean, my right I’m I am self-aware that I have a, when I look at the curriculum, right. I teach a very narrow part of the full field of psychology.

So I am sure that there are things that. Are not being addressed then I don’t know aren’t being addressed. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Marianne, thank you, Marianne Lloyd, by the way, from Seton hall university, uh, in New Jersey in Princeton, no north, north next to Newark. What’s it called? What’s the city, uh, south orange cell phone.

Everything else. Right. All right. I’m not going to edit that. Um, it’s fine. I mean, it’s, it’s a state that’s like two and a half hours long. We don’t really have to be so mad about prince. It’s like how I feel very sensitive when people confuse Cincinnati and Cleveland, like, I really can’t blame them. Right.

Right. Two cities in Ohio that are pretty large and start with the letter C and have football teams like with orange helmets. It’s not really the lax. Uh, Hey friend, am I going to see you at EPA? You bet ya. Oh, is that, is that right? Are you going to go anywhere else? This, uh, this year, any other travel in your future?

Maybe the main APA conference in Minneapolis. Um, maybe act in October, hopefully these economics we’ll be back in action in November. Uh, yeah, you don’t teach at a Catholic university, so I won’t see you at Collegium this summer. So that’s my gosh, but I really want to go whatever that is. Cause I’m an extrovert.

It’s oh my gosh. You would love it. I’m coming. I’m coming. What is it? It’s a week of faculty development for people at a Catholic universities. Yeah. Yeah. You had me at event right. A week a week. Somewhere for someone has planned all of your meals and what to do all day. Every day, your decision fatigue will be washed away.

Well, Marianne, I trust you are still running a long distances slowly and taking good care of yourself. Um, it was so nice to chat with you. Again, we are, uh, on behalf of, uh, Eric and myself and all the listeners. We really just appreciate what you are doing with ask successions, uh, the voices that you are bringing to the family.

And, um, you’re really leading honest, honestly, you are. And, and folks in the background as well, Marianne is leading, um, psych sessions forward, um, in the way that we think about EDI. And, um, and so I appreciate that, Marianne, thank you for. You are welcome, but I do want to say thank you that I could not do it without all the amazing guests willing to dedicate their time and expertise.

So huge, huge, huge. Thanks to everyone that, yup. Yup. All right. Uh, listeners, thank you. And Marianne again, we appreciate you and thanks again.